Need Help with H&R Break Top Hammerless in U.S. Pistols Forum

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Need Help with H&R Break Top Hammerless

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Allegheny	Need Help with H&R Break Top Hammerless	Lead	[-]
Posts: 122 Jan 16 10 1:12 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I have a 5 shot H&R Hammerless Break Top in .38 S&W that my father handed me the other day to see if I could do a small repair on it. It is a family heirloom that my father recently received from my uncles estate. I've no experience with a older revolver like this one and can use some help from those in the know. I do not have the camera I need to post decent pictures at this time so pictures will be posted later. I'm not quite sure what the actual model is as the only markings are: On top of the barrel: HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON ARMS CO. WORCESTER, MASS. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 6, 1889 OCTOBER 8, 1895 The left side of the barrel is stamped: .38 CAL. S.&W. CTGE. Serial Number is 958XX on the butt. It has the hard black rubber grips with the target. The barrel length is 3-3/16 in. measured from the rear of the barrel in front of the cylinder to the muzzle. It has a single pin on the hammer slot cover. The barrel is round with a raised rib that has a rounded groove just above the barrel for the length of the barrel. The front sight is 5/8 in. long and rounded 3/16 in. high and very thin. The rear sight is a raised groove in the barrel catch above the catch screw. Blueing is about 90 to 95 % and taking on a nice patina. The left grip is missing a small piece out of the butt of the grip next to the frame. The right grip has a crack in the same area. The bore is excellent. It automatically ejects when broke open. The cylinder does not lock to my satisfaction either. I suspect that at some time in the past the revolver was dissembled and improperly reassembled or something else is amiss as the firing pin simply moves forward when the trigger is pulled. There is no perceivable hammer action taking place. The screw slots have also been dinged up a bit also. I am looking for a dissembly and assembly procedure for the revolver. I've Googled the thing but can't seem to find anything relating to what I need. The closest description I could find was a 3rd model break top but what I read didn't mention anything about it being hammerless. Can any one help? Thanks Pictures added1/16/2010. Not the best but at least it is something to see. Last Edited By: Allegheny Jan 16 10 1:11 PM. Edited 2 times.
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jimb1		#1	[-]
Posts: 211 Jan 16 10 8:35 PM Active Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Sounds like the sear is broken or the sear notch on the hammer has been sheared off. If the hammer is resting on the firing pin, the hammer will push the pin forward as you described. The hammer, which is hidden under the removeable hood, is not being cocked when the trigger is pulled. You'll have to knock out the pins and remove the trigger guard to see which it is.
Allegheny	I've made some progress	#2	[-]
Posts: 122 Jan 17 10 12:08 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for the reply jimb1. I made a bit of progress since I first posted. A friend loaned me a copy of his Gun Digest Fire Arms Assembly/Disassembly Part II: Revolvers. In it is the break down procedure for the H&R Auto Ejector. I found it to be close enough to get this thing broken down. Getting it back together will be another story. While waiting for some replies I have been working with just the trigger assembly installed along with the hammer and hammer spring. I did not find a broken sear and I did manag to get the hammer functioning normally I believe. Hammer now draws back and breaks smooth and clean and strikes the firing pin as it should. I'm gathering that the sear which mounts in the rear pin of the trigger guard acts as a safety to keep the hammer from striking the inertia firing pin if the revolver is dropped. I see no other way it could fit or function. Apparently the cylinder stop is a hooked leaf spring and this one is twisted at the hook and a dent has been pressed into the frame from the hook. I guess some one locked it up good and tried to force it some more. I will have to see if I can iron out the dent somewhat and get the twist out of the end of the cylinder stop. One of the things I have found difficult is that the screw slots on these screws are so narrow compared to today's revolvers. I have been unable to get the cylinder stop removed so far. I also now see that the cylinder is actually locked into position when firing by a finger (or cam) on the top of the trigger which moves up into position into the cylinder slot as the trigger is drawn rearward. If any knows of a simple way to reinstall the trigger assembly and trigger guard I'd like to hear about it. I have not been able to get it back in (reverse order) as easy as the book say it should. I had to remove the trigger assembly and trigger guard simultaneously instead of separately as suggested by the book. I've seen a some postings in this forum by some that restore these and would appreciate hearing from them. Thanks
deputyave		#3	[-]
Posts: 1763 Jan 18 10 5:21 PM MODERATOR Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have several of these H&R top breaks because I just think they are neat little guns. Installing the trigger guard is the hardest part. You have to have trigger return spring in just the right spot and you almost have to have 3 hands. I haven't torn one down in a while. When I get a chance I will tear one down to refresh my memory. Be very careful with the cylinder lever (hand) because the springs are fragile hand they are very difficult to find. This is the best place I have found to find parts. When H&R stopped making handguns they bought all the remaining parts but every time I tried to buy a cylinder lever they send the wrong one. Most all other parts they do well with. I will get back with you with more info. http://www.e-gunparts.com/model_new.asp?catID=7887
Allegheny		#4	[-]
Posts: 122 Jan 18 10 7:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks deputyave, I'll be waiting for your reply. Now that I have it torn down and cleaned, I've believe I've isolated it down to two issues. 1. The safety sear behind the trigger is binding when the trigger guard is installed with just the sear and front and rear pins installed. It is possibly a bent pin. The safety sear with pin fits free in the trigger guard when it is removed. 2. The trigger is not allowing engagement of the lifter into the hammer notch unless the trigger is allowed to snap forward. This only occurs when the safety sear is installed (and binding). A close examination shows some slight bending in all the pins associated with the trigger group. I'm going to have to replace or straighten the pins. I'm not sure what else could possibly be causing this. I do like this little revolver also and intend to hand load for it if I can get it functional again. I know it been many years since it has been fired and I'm sure my 75 year old dad would like to do a little plinking whith it before his years come to a close. This one seems to be fairly tight with no wear on the latch or latch ears. It really looks to have had more holster or pocket wear than use.
jimb1		#5	[-]
Posts: 211 Jan 18 10 7:41 PM Active Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If you think yours is complicated, I have one of the hammerless with a TRIGGER SAFETY!
Allegheny		#6	[-]
Posts: 122 Jan 18 10 10:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Jimb1 can you post a picture of it here? I'd like to see it! Deputyave, The issue with the safety sear is corrected. I found that the trigger guard was twisted, rear one way front in the opposite direction. It was causing the safety sear to bind in the channel a bit of untwisting and some gentle deburing and smoothing in the channel with a miniature file worked best. I have a feeling that where the trigger guard comes back above the trigger it is setting too low and not allowing the trigger to travel quite as far forward as it needs to and I now suspect that it was sprung here also. I'll post my findings. Last Edited By: Allegheny Jan 19 10 12:31 AM. Edited 1 times.
jimb1		#7	[-]
Posts: 211 Jan 19 10 11:08 PM Active Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Give me a couple of days. Things are hectic around here right now.
deputyave		#8	[-]
Posts: 1763 Jan 26 10 8:21 PM MODERATOR Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Glad you are making progress. Sorry I didn't back to you as soon as I had hoped things at work are getting very busy. The trigger return spring can be put in upside down as well and the trigger will not go compltely forward. Keep us posted and good luck.
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dogngun	I have one in my hand right now	#9	[-]
Posts: 12 Jun 11 10 6:35 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	nickel plated, SN is 1531xx - mine was made around 1915. My understanding is with the hammerless models if the caliber /cartridge is stamped on the side of the barrel, it is a smokeless powder revolver and the thickness of the frame on yours seems to bear that out as well - I am guessing yours to be around 1908-1910. The cylinder on mine does not lock up till the trigger is being pulled back, however the cylinder DOES advance and align correctly and I have fired it ---it shoots fine and is pretty accurate given the small sights. I keep reading that these old H&R's are a nightmare to repair...I believe they require methods that are not familiar to modern gunsmiths, even those who still understand revolvers. I'd leave any repair required to someone who is able and willing to do it and gladly pay them what they ask. there are some parts still available at Numrich... www.gunpartscorp.com look under H&R Hammerless New Model topbreak .38 S&W. They are really nice old guns. You are lucky to have one in the family. mark
Allegheny	H&R Hammerless	#10	[-]
Posts: 122 Jun 11 10 7:32 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I had to put this down for awhile when my dad had a major heart attack and my mother passed away. I can now focus back on this little project again. I have found most of the repairs have been tedious to say the least. I have determined the last issue (I hope) with the revolver. Apparently the screw that goes through the hammer has some wear on it along with the pivot hole in the hammer and needs to be replaced along with the hammer itself. The bottom edge of the cocking notch in the hammer that appears to push the lifting hand out and allows the hammer to drop on the firing pin looks to have severe wear from incorrect assembly some time in the past. Every thing in the trigger group is functioning properly now that I have fixed the bugs in it. The trigger guard was bent as well as twisted suggesting a hard drop at some point as well. I do thank every one for their input. It is much appreciated. I will keep you you posted on my progress. As always pointers are graciously accepted.
deputyave		#11	[-]
Posts: 1763 Jul 1 10 9:46 PM MODERATOR Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Very sorry to hear about your family tragedy Allegheny.
Allegheny	I need a little more Help	#12	[-]
Posts: 122 Jan 9 11 10:56 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've ordered a couple parts to finish my repairs to this thing. Gun Parts didn't have a hammer screw listed for this model. It's a large frame New Model Hammerless .38 S&W blue finish. Will a hammer screw from one of the other models fit this one also? I even found the replacement grips at Vintage Grips. Thanks
deputyave		#13	[-]
Posts: 1763 Jan 10 11 2:19 PM MODERATOR Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Did you call Gun Parts some times they get stuff in in small quantities and don't list them. Have you tried this guy? http://www.gun-parts.com/harringtonrichardson/
Allegheny	Success at last! Thanks to every one for their input.	#14	[-]
Posts: 122 Feb 18 11 10:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Success at last! Thanks to every one for their input. I now have a fully functional H&R break-top revolver. I never was able to get a hammer screw but did find a solution. On this particular revolver the latch screw and hammer screw were interchangeable. The trigger guard was replaced as was the worn out hammer. pulling back on the trigger is smooth and it breaks crisp. I'm overjoyed I was able to get this family heirloom back to being fully functional. Again, Thank you all very much. You're a great bunch!
nebraska lawdog		#15	[-]
Posts: 563 Feb 19 11 11:56 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There's a gentleman near here that probably has parts for those. (He's had nearly everything I ever needed unless it was really unusual.) Let me know if you want his number.
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