Any body want to try something? I am wrapping up the final work on a new action I designed, and will be sending it to HP white for destructive pressure
testing. I found the prices for the testing were not all that bad, so if we want to find out what a 96 can take, and can find an donor action I would send it
in for testing when I do mine. It could even be one we piece together, and could be in any caliber, but common calibers make it easier to test, they did tell
me that. The testing is 1200, but if we combine all our funds we could all get the info, that might make us a bit more at ease with some of the conversions we
run across or want to try with breaking any individual banks. This was just a thought so let me know if there is any interest.
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Pressure testing for Swede actions
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 losok.parallaxscurioa... |
Pressure testing for Swede actions |
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Posts: 10 (01/09/09 9:28 PM) |
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 5986 (01/10/09 7:01 AM) MODERATOR |
Anybody remember OKShooter out in Lawton (aka Stan Watson)? Several years ago, I sent Stan a Husky to test, at his request. He had a problem though making it
work. The string (strain?) gage is longer than that first step where it is supposed to be attached. So he couldn't get a good reading.
Stan is not a hobbyist. He is a ballistics expert under contract to the government, highly skilled at what he does. He knows his stuff. If Stan couldn't do it, I doubt it can be done on a military barrel with steps. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB)
Last Edited By: Thor96
01/10/09 4:55 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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losok.parallaxscurioa... |
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Posts: 12 (01/10/09 10:50 AM) |
I would not be doing the testing, I also wondered about how all this is done. Since I am designing a new action, I had to use the lab that tests all the big
maker rifles. HP White Labs is the firm that does it. Mine will be going in for the full battery of tests, drop and pressure that they do for all production
firearms. I thought maybe we could run a Swede in a caliber that they have, if they dont have 6.5X55, maybe a 308 etc.
The tests are done using calibers that they have pressure test barrels for, this way they can get a load that develops a defined pressure level, and the then load the exact same load in the rifle being tested, fire it, then using high speed video and other methods, they track exactly what happens with the rifle. They start at standard spec for the round being used, then work up going next to proof pressure(125% of standard), then on up to a max of 175% of spec or 140000psi, or until the rifle fails to function. The man in charge of the testing talked with me for over 20 minutes on the phone and went into a lot of detail on the way he would test any rifle I sent in. He told me the ideal failure is the gun locks up, but does not come apart, and that he told me is what tends to happen most. Here is a link to the lab, it is the place where all new arms are tested, and also the Co who will come and defend a gunmaker in court in legal action. http://www.hpwhite.com/about-hp-white-laboratory/ |
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 5992 (01/10/09 5:03 PM) MODERATOR |
308 on a Swede? Never seen one unless it was an aftermarket barrel. Any barrel which does not have steps, especially that first step over the chamber, would work. The gage is epoxied to the barrel and must be directly over the chamber, lengthwise with no distortions. So any aftermarket barrel would probably work. If the tests are done with their barrels, then all is needed is a donor action. Which brings up another matter. "Donor" means something has to die. Those actions don't come back in one piece. I don't know anybody willing to "donate" an action. They are getting too rare. Cough up some bucks, and I might scrape something up. BIG bucks. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB) |
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losok.parallaxscurioa... |
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Posts: 15 (01/10/09 5:31 PM) |
The way they do it is to build a load in their test rig to a known pressure, then they put it the action to be tested, all chambers are measured by them to
make sure they are within SAMMI spec so the test will be valid. Once they have the known load, and known in spec chamber on the rifle to be tested, then they
conduct the test as I indicated above. Most likely the test action will come back in one piece, but maybe not. I will put up the action, no issues there, I
have a couple sported swede 96 receivers with bolts that are ok but no treasures, they were given to me, so I am not out much. I can make a 308 barrel to fit
from a take off I have here, so no probs there either.
Now I just have to get the money to pay for the test, this test will come with full report of each step of the test and the results on the action, including all data recorded on the rifle. I will call them monday and see if they have a 6.5X55 barrel to build the loads in, if they do, I will use 6.5X55 so the data will be more usable for swede fans. I was thinking of using the 308 just because folks always ask me if they can make 308s or if the older sporter 308 96 conversions and 30-06 96 conversions they get from various places are safe to shoot. Plus we all know there are some real nice conversions that come in from Sweden that are super well done on 96s that would be great to get, and if we know the 96 is well up to taking it, it would be even nicer to have them. I just think for all of us, if we have the HP White report, it will be great info. |
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lonniemike |
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Posts: 130 (01/10/09 9:21 PM) |
I'd think/guess that H.P.White would use a piezo methodology and not a stain system. Check out this link. This page may have more info than anyone wants to
know. http://kwk.us/pressures.html I remember Stan Watson. Also I
remember Ken Howell(he was somehow tied with P.O.Ackley) and Denton Bramwell. Both of these two have done a bit of strain gage work and played around with the
96 action. I also know of a Hot Core who vehemently despises strain gages and anyone who tries to gain or share knowledge about what he calls a fools gold home
system. HC thinks the cats meow is PRE and CHE. I don't agree with him. best-o-luck
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 5999 (01/11/09 7:20 AM) MODERATOR |
lonniemike wrote:Lonnie, Stan is/was a great guy. Haven't heard from him in a while. He was having health problems last I heard. We dropped by his house on vacation one year. You should see his reloader room and his gunsmith room. Out of this world. If you've heard from him or have a current email, I would love to get back in touch with him. I had the privilege of meeting Ken Howell too. He was on his way through to his daughter's wedding, and spent the night, we had breakfast together and it was amazing to him pour out tons of info. He invited me up to his place in Montana, but I never took him up on it. I just found a website on update on Ken, but don't know how old the message is. http://www.bpcr.net/site_...ments/ken_howell_trip.htm He's had a stroke and appears to have moved to New Mexico. These are two great guys I feel privileged to have known, and hope to get back in touch with them. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB) |
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velvetnsteel |
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Posts: 2290 (01/12/09 12:31 PM) MODERATOR |
You guys know that a division of Kimber was building and selling some pretty hot rifles on model 96 actions, so I would imagine they did some proof testing on
them. Would have been crazy not to take one to failure. I know there were .30-06 and .308 models built, and I believe a .22-250 was offered.
Then of course Norma has a bunch of 96 actions in their plant that they use for load development, testing, etc. I imagine they have popped a couple along the way. I think that the fact that they use those actions speaks volumes about their quality. The data from those two enterprises probably would be pretty hard to come by though.
Long live the Swedish Mauser!!
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 6007 (01/12/09 2:33 PM) MODERATOR |
Velvet, not necessarily. Lots of dumb things have been done through the years in the name of profit and free enterprise. They didn't pay much attention to
SAAMI and didn't have a bunch of lawyers sitting outside the door waiting for them to make a mistake. Kimber may have done some testing, and I know the
Swedes had done some testing on the small ring with 30-06 and supposedly the actions held up.
Maybe so, but I bet a dollar to a donut there were some flattened and cratered primers. Keep it up a few hundred or thousand rounds and the action will weaken, and possibly the lugs set back. Kimber is not going to tell you about that. Now if you have confidence in the large companies, consider Remington 700's "fire on safety release" problem and the accidents and deaths that came out of that problem. I've got a 700 and have had a failure problem, so I know it's real. The 308 might be low enough pressure for the small ring action, but I would be very nervous about a 30-06 or 22-250. So I believe I'll just stick with the recipes in the book. I've cooked up some hot loads in the past and even had some flatten primers. I had one load that I developed in cooler weather that blowed a couple primers last Summer. By blowed, I don't just mean punctured, I mean they fell out of the pocket when I pulled the brass out of the rifle. I shot that load this hunting season, but I'll be developing my loads in warmer weather in the future and expect to come up with reduced velocity/energy. The deer won't complain about couple hundred feet loss in velocity as long as the accuracy puts the bullet where I want it. He won't murmur a word, maybe whimper and gulp that last breath. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB) |
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MP1978.parallaxscurioa... |
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Posts: 18 (01/12/09 7:17 PM) |
Check out "Bolt Action Rifles" by Frank de Haas. He states that the Swede actions were proofed to 66,000 psi. but he didn't reccomend
rebarreling one for rounds generating more than 45,000 psi. The Swede's had a military competition rifle based on the m/96 action in 7.62x51 NATO (51,000
psi). The model nominclature was m/7. The modern .308 hunting round developes up to 60,000 psi and that doesn't leave much room for safety in the case of a
case head rupture or primer failure. In all cases it's better to err on the side of safety and that's why we should all keep the rebarrel of these
actions to ones in the pressure range quoted above. Also a couple of years ago one of the gun magazines took an all matching Swede to the blow up pressures and
had it's results posted in the magazine. They also tested a few other vintage bolt action rifles and the strongest of these older actions tested was the
Arisaka.. So there really isn't a need to damage another Swede action when you can do a little research in the archieves of the gun rags and get all the
info you want...Jimbo
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lonniemike |
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Posts: 131 (01/12/09 8:24 PM) |
The CUP confusion will probably never stop. de Haas says Swede's were proofed at 66,000psi breech pressure and generally shot service ammo at 45,000psi
breech pressure. His psi breech pressure values are in (unstated) Cup values and in not unstated piezo values. In the US army, 7.62 NATO service ammo is rated
51,000-52,000(psi) by the CUP method. And they rated 7.62 NATO at 60,000(psi) by the piezo method. For extra confusion CUP figures can be generated by several
different systems and likewise there are several ways piezo figures can be generated also. And then there is psi generated by different strain gage systems
too. My Kimber literature does not show that Warne offered a 30'06 in the 96 action. His offerings were in 22-250, 243, 6.5, 7-08, and 308 in various
varmit, heavy, and sporter weight barrels also in stainless or blued. Can one push the Swede some? I think so. Problems can be found if a body tries to turn
the Swede into a 264 Mag. With care a middle ground can be found. best-o-luck
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 6011 (01/12/09 10:36 PM) MODERATOR |
I believe MP1978 has the right idea. Why must we always be trying to reinvent the wheel. Maybe a Swede action can take more before it blows up, but you can
have a gas blow out long before then. Those hot gases are what have to be watched... Or should I say "not" watched. I don't want hot gases in my
face or eyes. I feel fortunate that the the gases from the blowouts I had were vented through the ports, but I don't care to press my luck. I'm
searching for accuracy loads at a lower pressure. I don't know if it matters, but I'm also going back to a single base powder.
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB) |
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losok.parallaxscurioa... |
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Posts: 20 (01/13/09 6:53 PM) |
My thoughts were merely to see where the margins are, so we could know. I know that a lot of guys would like to push the 6.5X55 out there a bit faster. This is
more a curiosity thing than anything else. I am pretty sure the swede's built a lot of mausers in 30-06 on the 96 action, as sporters. I have seen a ton of
them that are direct imported that way, is it the safest probably not, that is also why I was thinking of testing one.
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 6029 (01/13/09 9:52 PM) MODERATOR |
losok wrote:Husqvarna (not Gustafs) produced and exported sporters to USA, but they were not on the same action. I would really like to see one of the 30-06 imports built on a 96 action that you are talking about. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB) |
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losok.parallaxscurioa... |
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Posts: 21 (01/13/09 11:52 PM) |
Sarco used to have them on their site, I have seen them elsewhere as well. I have buddy in Canada that has one, he got his here,
http://www.tradeexcanada....&task=table&gid=5 There are several on the page, both the commercials you spoke of and several 96 actions in 30-06, 8X57(in Europe loaded to near 30-06 pressure), some look factory built and others seem to be privately done. |
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 6031 (01/14/09 9:51 AM) MODERATOR |
The Canadian sight has mostly 8x57 and 9.3x57, but yes, a few 30-06. However, I still contend they are aftermarket sporters. Here are my points.
The Gustafs plant was established by the crown. Purpose was to develop and build military rifles. It is not the Crown's place to get into free enterprise. The 96 plant was pretty well mothballed when they contracted Husqvarna to build the M38. Husqvarna is a free enterprise business and did produce hunting rifles after the war, but they were mostly on different actions, especially the higher pressure chambers. They did use the small ring action on the 38 frame for metric rifles, which raises another point. Inch calibers are not popular in Europe, especially in Sweden. Metrics pretty well dominate the scene. That's why you see "oddball" chambers such as the 9.3 and the variety of 6.5's in Europe. I call the "oddball" because they are to us in USA. Not in Europe. They are mainstream over there. There are a few people who are highly qualified to answer the question, one being Dutchman over at the House of Karlina. I have contacted him and asked him to respond to this thread. There are 3-4 other persons but I have lost contact with them: Anders, Hans, Petters, and Perssons. They are Swedish, live in Sweden and are very well versed in the Swedish rifles and the history of the crown and military. So I will refer to their expertise on this. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB) |
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velvetnsteel |
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Posts: 2300 (01/14/09 12:57 PM) MODERATOR |
I have seen ads for the Huskys chambered in .30-06 indicating they were on 96 actions. Maybe that is a loose intrepretation though. Looked like a 96 in the
pics to me though.
Alan's Armory used to have a bunch of them.
Long live the Swedish Mauser!!
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Dutchman |
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Posts: 70 (01/14/09 4:05 PM) |
Howdydoo
The Husqvarna Model 46 is a 96 action. It was offered in 8x57 and others. I'm not sure about .30-06. There was a Carl Gustaf factory sporter on a 96 action and it was .30-06. I don't know how long they offered it or how successful it was but once in a great while they show up. Nobody that I know thinks its a good idea to stuff .30-06 in a 96 Mauser action. There was also a Gustaf factory employee sporter that was a bare bones sporter on a 96 action. They don't show up often in the U.S. but they do exist. I don't know what calibers they offered if anything different than 6.5x55. The Kimbers that I recall were .308 Winchester & .22-250. I don't think Kimber offered a .30-06 in a 96 action. IMO, rebarreling a 96 action to anything exceeding 6.5x55 is foolish. The actions are just too old and don't have the strength or design features that make them desireable for such a use. There is no better Mauser action than the 98 action and that's what I'd use. I've shot the 96 action since 1966 and I love shooting my m/96 rifles but that doesn't mean I think its the best thing since sliced bread. I don't think that. I think the best action to push your luck is the 98 action. I'd be interested in results of any testing. I like to keep up on such things. Dutch |
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 6033 (01/14/09 5:28 PM) MODERATOR |
Thanks Dutch. I knew you would clear the air. Looks like I lost one and won one. I still suspect those Canadian rifles are importer conversions. There are just
too many of them to be a part of those Dutch is talking about.
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB)
Last Edited By: Thor96
01/14/09 5:32 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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MP1978.parallaxscurioa... |
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Posts: 19 (01/14/09 7:05 PM) |
There are a few importers bringing in commercial sporter rifles in a large variety of calibures. These were all purchased out of private hands and gun shops.
I've read where Anders has stated in the past that there are just as many if not more Swedish Bubbas as American ones. It's just as possable many of
these rifles were built by private gunsmiths and not in the calibure of original manufacture. In those cases you would be taking your health and safety in your
own hands by shooting these rifles. They may last 100 rounds, 1000 rounds or blow up on the next round fired. There just isn't any sure way to know without
looking at each individual rifle. Many of the rifles I've seen imported that were chambered in higher pressure rounds and were correct production models
were based on m/98 actions. Allens Armory has had a bunch of these in the past couple years. I still contend that when there are any questions as to who put
the components together it's better to err on the side of safety. One other thing to think about. In colder climates, especially very cold ones like found
in Sweden, pressures generated by a given amount of powder are lower than when those rounds are fired in hot climates. For instance a box of Winchester ammo
fired and tested here in Florida will have a higher pressure than that same box of ammo fired in Sweden when it's minus 10 degrees. An action that fired
ammo in colder climates weren't exposed to the same pressures, in a given calibure, as those routinely encountered in a warmer climate...Jimbo
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Thor96 |
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Posts: 6035 (01/14/09 10:55 PM) MODERATOR |
Jimbo, have you talked to Anders directly about this? He has posted in this forum in times past but I haven't heard from him in a long time. I would sure
like to hear what he has to say about this. I've still got a question about the Crown factory acting in free enterprise, building sporters for public
sales. I'm inclined to agree with you that these came out of private hands and gun shops, and sporterized there, not in the Crown Gustafs factory.
I certainly agree with you about the difference in loads developed in cold climate Sweden and hot Florida, Texas or Arizona. I've posted in this thread as well as others about loads I developed in cold weather and piercing and popping primers in the heat of the summer. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 (NASB)
Last Edited By: Thor96
01/14/09 10:58 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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